Monday, 19 December 2011

London Beth Din ruling on Springfield Synagogue

See also

Occupied territory at Springfield Synagogue

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

Notes about this.
1 It is also affiliated to the Adass and one can choose one’s burial place.
3 The majority daven sefard.
5 The reason that there were no elections was because the rov didn’t want any.
6 As trustees they have every right to sell the shul for their own gain.
7 They were not only ‘lawfully’ appointed but appointed by the rov.
10 The 3 yearly elections was the idea of the rov to allow him to go ‘lecture’ touring.
11 Internal layout means tables.
12 The board must consult with the rov. That doesn’t mean the rov is necessary right in not changing the nusach. Just because one must consult does not mean again that the rov who is ‘nogaia’ is right.
The sefard minyan does not have to pay. That is clear from the LBD psak.
The rov is entitled to know all the half dead members. I have already written ‘for what’. What is he going to do for them.

The upstairs minyan did join in with the elections as their representative was voted as treasurer. Why didnt he listen to the rov not to attend.
And again why no mention of the upstairs offices paying rent. What did you go to the LBD for.

Anonymous said...

I would like to carry on to make things clearer. I must stress that I have absolutely no connection with either party.
The question here is not of changing the nusach. Dayan Guco can carry on davenning which ever nusach he likes as long as he can scratch a minyan together.
At the moment his chasidic layabouts or dropouts dont want to get up in the morning so he has no minyan unless he pays them with money he doesnt possess.
So the downstairs use his premises for their own sefard minyan. Shneiders allow a sefard minyan when the premises are empty. Dayan Guco ashamed that he cant get his own wants to stop them as well by saying they are changing the nusach. Again since they went to LBD why cant they give a clear psak for this.
About his 200 half dead members. You have yourself admitted that the only reason he has to know who they are is when theyre dead for shiva calls which dayan Guco has never made and wont start making now. So the secretary should only have to tell him when theyre dead. I must ask the LBD what right or what reason does he have to know who they are when they are still alive. True they have said this but I dispute this for the reason given. Let us hear your reply to this.
I must mention the secretary refuses to honour the LBD citing the data protection act which he claims can be used here. Surely the LBD can also pasken if it applies here.
Dayan Guco attended the LBD hearings although he is only an employee and had no right to. Since he attended its like he signed with his members that he would adhere to the psak. Its no use saying now the LBD are wrong. You cant do that. I also dont think theyre fully right as I have mentioned but I havent been there and undertaken to follow their psak like he has. Saying he only follows it when its daas torah meaning his daas tora can only be right if he writes a tshuva about it. So far he only talks and writes public notices saying other rabbonim meaning Dayan Dunner agree with him.

Springfield.Synagogue said...

Chapter 8 in the Psak:

At the AGM held 19th January 2011 there were only eleven nominations for twelve places all those who stood were elected

Note: that there have been only 11 voters (!) so were all those “chasidishe” members?

Annual election:

This a open lie, the are “ two “ constitutions in our shul , the first original one and an other one who have been amended after the “Chasidim” came aboard. The original one and only genuine one (according to the Rav) says that election must be held yearly. Its just to point out that befor the beis din urged to held the last election last January the have been no election since 1988 (!!!!)

The board must consult with the Rav:

Yep yep , the only have to consult the Rav, but ….. Hey you forgot something! Let’s read from the psak word by word:

Chapter 12 (i)
The board must consult with the Rov on all religious and ethos matters pertaining to the shul and any proposed changes in the nusach of tefilos or in the lay out of the shul (introduction of tables etc.) may only take place with the approval of the Rov

Is not the point if he is a nogea or he is right or wrong the beis paskend clearly that it needs the APROVAL of the Rav!

That s what beis din paskend, you don’t like it? I know but that’s the fact,

Again about the members list:

This was heard at both hearings in beis din, and beis din made it ever so clear that the Rav can and should have it, what you think way is irrelevant more than that beis din said in the psak clearly lets read from it:

Chapter 12 (v)

The Rav is entitled as Rav of the Shul to be given a list of telephone numbers and addresses of all members and this should be done with immediate effect

Can you find me anywhere else in the psak the wording “with immediate effect” I could not, has it been done? NO

So lets have a “ sikum hadvorim”

Ohel moshe minyan can daven as much and long the want in the lower ground floor named ohel moshe.

Changes in the shul: new nussach only with approval of the Rav, the Rav strongly opposed the new change in giving a drosho and in writing. Did the ohel moshe listen? NO.

First breach in the psak

Members list: has it given with immediate effect? NO

Second breach

Beside the point that the are trying to “fardrei “ the psak that this did not mean that and only consult/insult the Rav but but but

Springfield.Synagogue said...

You have no connection with any party …….

Same is with the neturei karta dropouts, the are not interested to daven minche or maariv with ohel moshe, since years the ohel moshe don’t have a minche maariv minyan and therefore join the “jekishe ashkenas” minche maariv

Last summer the ohel moshe chevre did try to make a maariv minyan at “nacht” ( with approval of the Rav) and interestingly even taught that most mispalelim are chasidish and sefard , the second maariv minyan struggled so much that after a view days it was over….

Shiva :

You have no connection with any party but clearly accept their lies and dishonour of the Rav, he never went to lewajes or shivas it’s a fact well known to all….. I myself was with the Rav and several lewayes and shiva visits in the last years it has been stopped because the Rav was not notified and

Yes the Data Protection was brought up at all hearings and the beis din said clearly already at the first hearing that the dayan must be given the full list, and at the second hearing beis din got really annoyed with the secretary that he still withholds it. So it written ever so clear in the psak , but the secretary still having issues ( and is back up by his “lawfully” elected board members)

Please understand the secretary is a paid employee and if the board is keen to follow the psak the could have already long time or force him to give it out or sack him but either way has not happened

THE DAYAN AT THE HEARINGS

The dayan was at only one hearing (the first one) he did not came along as a “zad” he was brought there in a status of an “ed” the only think he did do over there was to tell the beis din “eidus” , beis din did not saw him as a part of neither side and also did not asked him to be mekabel kinyan or sign any ksav borerus !

More will follow

Springfield Synagogue

Anonymous said...

You of course dont answer the questions.
First of all the rov only went to shivas with Mr Blender, and only to those who davenned in the shul. He never went alone.
Why must the rov have the members list whilst they are alive. ANSWERS PLEASE. You rightfully admit he only goes to shivas when they are dead. For what purpose does he need to have it while they are alive. Give me even one good reason.
Consult or approval of the rov is quite right if he would be a normal rov who would not be nogaia. The rov cant just make up his own daas torah. Ask the rov and afterwards put it here why Shneiders can allow their premises to be used for a sfard minyan when not otherwise in use and he cant.
Again its not a NEW NUSACH For the shul. Its to use the premises I may add by paying members when the shul is not otherwise in use.
If a rov attends a hearing even as an eid that means he accepts the beth dins psak.
Again consult with the rov does not mean his personal opinion but his daas torah. He has ABSOLUTELY NO SAY WHAT SOEVER. His personal opinion being a paid employee and not a paying member has absolutely no validity whatsoever.
The LBD did not see him as part of either side. Then they must be blind.
Again I repeat it was the rov and no one else who stopped the yearly elections because he went lecture touring.
Now he says when it goes against him that it was illegal.
You say the board can sack the secretary any time.
The rov had better watch out they can sack him as well any time.
These are not neturai karta dropouts but thriving members. They go to Iran have kissed their president agreed there was no holocaust what more to they have to do to prove their membership. I am not sure you are even allowed to daven with them.

Anonymous said...

Oh you forgot to explain why you didnt listen to the rov and some upstairs members attended the AGM and even got seats on the board.

Anonymous said...

Yes I am told that the rov neglected his duties for years by not giving his shabbos shiur. Getting someone else to give it, his brother in law is no excuse. He is paid to give it, not to see its given by just anyone. This resulted of course in no one attending. A rov is here to minister to his flock not to shy away from them and send a sheep dog to do it.

Springfield.Synagogue said...

First, the Rav went also alone and with others to be menachem ovel.

The right to for the Rav to have the full list was discussed twice at the LBD and the Paskend clearly that he is entitled and with immediate effect, so the are obviously plenty of good reasons why he is entitled and should have it immediately

And the main and best reason at the moment for you is that Beis Din said so, and paskend so!!!

Or do you wanna challenge the Psak as he is? Or disagree with Beis Din?

So do you say that the Rav is not normal?!? Or a nogea and than the psak is also not nogea ? But Beis Din clearly thinks that the Board MUST consult him and get his approval!

Wanna challenge the Psak again?

The Rav made up his daas toire? Come on, that’s a hundreds, year old question already, who is right: the Rav or the Rosh Hakohol…. You are on the Rosh Hakohol’s side (or the Rosh Hakohol himself…?)

Shneiders is no “raye” at all, firstly consult the brothers Rabonim Halpern, and you will find out that officially the shabes night minyan (must) daven ashkenas, (might be the don’t wanna fight it or other reasons why the allow it even if the clear know the opposite, for example try to put a megulach who did not went to mikve that day and wants to daven ashkenas in satmar, bels or wishnitz even when it is empty and not in use…..

Or in exchange ask any posek or godol if you can daven in a ashkenas shul (who is still active) even in empty times for an other nussach… you will be surprised! ( Rav Elyashiv for example is very against it HALOCHO WISE

Every psak you wont be happy about the Rav you will have a good tirutz : its not Daas Toire, its his personal ……


Again the LBD must be blind…. Wanna challenge the LBD as beis din now?

(A kitzer: the list, no reason to give it, approval of the Rav, no need, (it’s anyway his personal, the Beis Din Oh the are blind…. Nice record so far….)

Springfield.Synagogue said...

You say the Rav should better watch out…. Yes we have heard those rumours as well its clearly against what Dayan Gelley said at the second hearing, but lets put it that way, the secretary could/should be sacked already long time ago because at the moment he is a “ ENO ZAYES DINE “ and the Rav and what would he be sacked? That he was not scared to say his daas toire against the daas balei batim?

I think you should warn the Rav again that he should “watch” out, best in writing

Election : the Rav has no voting rights neither is he present at the elections so what does it have to do if he “travels lecturing” or I don’t know what with the yearly elections? Its simple an other lie, its very easy thinks have been done against the constitutions blame it onto the Rav…….


Those who have seats in the ohel moshe board:

Firstly Mr Jacobsen ( he is already mentioned in the Psak so I will mention his name also) has been ( according to the LBD) been voted as the Treasurer of the Board, ok ever heard of a treasurer who has been refused even to see the Shul’s accounts? Never mind not given any signature rights and been refused to gain antry at board meetings etc. but you telling stories that he is your treasurer and you shout at the first meeting that you will never ever give him any paperwork, accounts or whatsoever. Interesting treasurer ….

From the opposite Mr. M.L. (son of …..) did also come to the AGM held by Springfield synagogue were Rabbi G Cohen was elected as chairman and also insisted to be nominated as board member and also duly was voted in as board member, he even paid than membership to the Springfield board. (It is all recorded) also CH.B.W. is also voted in in the Springfield board ( he also sits in the Ohel board) and also did participate after the LBD psak on a Springfield Synagogue Board meeting.


The Rav shiur :

I m not sure what he has been paid for and what written in the contract, but I know it has going so for years, and no one ever complained (why should they, they never bothered to be at the shiur the are @ 3 seudes any way, but I know that when recently the Rav was approached on that subject by regular Mispalelim and some members that the want his shiur in person , the Rav immediately changed and I don’t know if you know the Rav’s shiur is back on , and yes its packed , that is what really irritates the ohel moshe , the shul was supposed to die out so the could take it over, problematically (for them) the shul wakes up , it is full like never before so that what hurts them so the try to destroy it with any excuse


So :

The ohel moshe does not need to listen to the Psak because:

1) no real need for the list
2) the Rav does not have daas toire but his personal opinion
3) he is not normal
4) the LBD is blind
5) he should watch out he is going to be sacked

it would be ever so nice if you could put all this in writing straight to the Rav cc LBD to show your true face and mean than instead to send Rabbi Hershel shnek he should try to explain the Rav that you only want ~”SHOLOM” just look in his face tell him : listen we not going to honour the Psak because of above reasons and the secretary ( I wish you ever so much fun to work with him in the future….) gets our fully support and you Rabbi should watch out…..

Springfield.Synagogue said...

You say the Rav should better watch out…. Yes we have heard those rumours as well its clearly against what Dayan Gelley said at the second hearing, but lets put it that way, the secretary could/should be sacked already long time ago because at the moment he is a “ ENO ZAYES DINE “ and the Rav and what would he be sacked? That he was not scared to say his daas toire against the daas balei batim?

I think you should warn the Rav again that he should “watch” out, best in writing

Election : the Rav has no voting rights neither is he present at the elections so what does it have to do if he “travels lecturing” or I don’t know what with the yearly elections? Its simple an other lie, its very easy thinks have been done against the constitutions blame it onto the Rav…….


Those who have seats in the ohel moshe board:

Firstly Mr Jacobsen ( he is already mentioned in the Psak so I will mention his name also) has been ( according to the LBD) been voted as the Treasurer of the Board, ok ever heard of a treasurer who has been refused even to see the Shul’s accounts? Never mind not given any signature rights and been refused to gain antry at board meetings etc. but you telling stories that he is your treasurer and you shout at the first meeting that you will never ever give him any paperwork, accounts or whatsoever. Interesting treasurer ….

From the opposite Mr. M.L. (son of …..) did also come to the AGM held by Springfield synagogue were Rabbi G Cohen was elected as chairman and also insisted to be nominated as board member and also duly was voted in as board member, he even paid than membership to the Springfield board. (It is all recorded) also CH.B.W. is also voted in in the Springfield board ( he also sits in the Ohel board) and also did participate after the LBD psak on a Springfield Synagogue Board meeting.


The Rav shiur :

I m not sure what he has been paid for and what written in the contract, but I know it has going so for years, and no one ever complained (why should they, they never bothered to be at the shiur the are @ 3 seudes any way, but I know that when recently the Rav was approached on that subject by regular Mispalelim and some members that the want his shiur in person , the Rav immediately changed and I don’t know if you know the Rav’s shiur is back on , and yes its packed , that is what really irritates the ohel moshe , the shul was supposed to die out so the could take it over, problematically (for them) the shul wakes up , it is full like never before so that what hurts them so the try to destroy it with any excuse


So :

The ohel moshe does not need to listen to the Psak because:

1) no real need for the list
2) the Rav does not have daas toire but his personal opinion
3) he is not normal
4) the LBD is blind
5) he should watch out he is going to be sacked

it would be ever so nice if you could put all this in writing straight to the Rav cc LBD to show your true face and mean than instead to send Rabbi Hershel shnek he should try to explain the Rav that you only want ~”SHOLOM” just look in his face tell him : listen we not going to honour the Psak because of above reasons and the secretary ( I wish you ever so much fun to work with him in the future….) gets our fully support and you Rabbi should watch out…..

Anonymous said...

How long does it take to walk from Moundfield Road to the Springfield synagogue?

Anonymous said...

As usual no answers.
Just saying the LBD said so. No reason given. I asked why. I know they said so, but I and many others on here would like to know why.
So far no other reason why he must know who the half dead members are while they are still alive.
YES UNLESS THEIR IS A REASON I WANT TO CHALLENGE THE PSAK.
I am not part of either side so why not.
Why dont you get a halachik psak from the LBD if they can use the shul. They meaning paying members while its not in use for davenning sfard. What did you go to the LBD for. You went, you were not called by the other side. So why isnt in the psak. Maybe I am wrong I am no rov but your dayan Guco is nogaia so why cant the LBD give a psak for this. I am sure they did although its not written and you are scared to go back for this because you will lose like you lost about the rent.
It was you who said the comment about the LBD thinking the rov is neutral and for that I said the LBD must be blind. Not that I said they were blind. No theyre not blind at all they know what is going on.
If the rov goes against the LBD the shul has every right to sack him.
The rov paid the dues of members so that they should vote for his candidate, at the time it was for Hillman. So dont say the rov doesnt influence elections.
The rov 'changed' because his brother in law had no one left. Not because he was asked to come back.
It is the rovs duty to make sure people attend the shiur. And the only way is if he gives it himself. So he was neglecting his duty all these years. In other words took money what he was not entitled to. He was not doing his job. Giving it to someone else who cant do it, proof being people stopped attending means not doing his job and taking money for nothing. Thats daas torah again.
Dayan Dunner has never done that when he is in town. So its not Dayan Dunners daas tora this time.
Councillor Jacobson should do his duties as a councillor and should realise that all these people are in his ward. He only got in by a few votes and fighting them will make sure they wont vote for him next time. So he wont get his 10000 pounds a year from the council. If he had any sense, he doesnt seem to have much he wouldnt be fighting this battle it being against himself.

Anonymous said...

carring on.
The only reason the rov 'suddenly' wants to know the members is not to give them the last rites. It is to try to influence them to vote for his board.
If the rov is right (he isnt)that its still an ashkenaz shul (it also isnt) and no one can daven sefard there. Why must he threaten with meesa meshunos. Cant he get a psak from LBD. Or write a notice like everyone else and get the signatures of Dayan Dunner. Or Shechter and the Halperns who daven with him.
Even better he should go round the town and get every rov's signature.
They all scratch each other. They never know when they will need them. In hebrew its called gomlin. Anyone who learns daf yomi at present should have heard about it. Kohanim are not to be trusted. So why should rabbonim. same reason applies to them. Sorry its a machlokes there. I think we pasken kohanim can be trusted. I wouldnt say the same for rabbonim though.
Oh dont forget 'RABBI' Geoffrey Cohen. He calls him rabbi so he must approve of him unlike the LBD.
For every other silly notice they manage. If he has to resort to 'terror' tactics it can only mean he is wrong.
What has Moundfield road to do with it. The rov lives in Ashtead road.