Tuesday, 7 May 2013

Pound of Flesh

Hager hechsher

עש”ק פ’ בהר בחקתי תשע”ג

היות ורבים שואלים אותי על הכשרים שונים על בשר. דעתי שבנסיבות הזמן אין שום שאלה של שחוטי חוץ באזורנו. אבל תמיד ראוי להקפיד מטעמי כשרות על הכשר שניתן ע"י רבנים חרדים שמאחוריהם עומד ועד כשרות שיש בע"ב שהם נציגים של ציבור של שומרי תורה ומצוות

גרשון האגער

[Friday, 3 May 2013]

In light of many enquiries I have had concerning different hechsheirim of meat. I am of the view that due to current circumstances there is no question of 'shchitei chutz' (out of town slaughter) in our area. However, generally one should insist, on grounds of kashrus, on a hechsher that is backed by a kashrus committee comprised of lay delegates from an observant public.

Gershon Hager

22 comments:

Yossi Heller said...

There's nothing like a clear, concise psak, and this is nothing like a clear, concise psak

Either shchitas chutz is an issue, in which case the standard of the hechsher is irrelevant, or the standard of the hechsher is unreliable, in which case shchitas chutz is irrelevant. What is meant by shchitas chutz doesn't apply but one should insist on a hechsher that is backed by by a kashrus committee of representatives of an observant public?

I'm slowly reaching the understanding that the greatness of Nachshon was not merely the jumping into the sea -people do that for recreation - it was more that he had a principle, stood up for his principle and publicly acted in accord with his principle without resorting to double Dutch or mumbo jumbo which he could spin in all directions.

When will our Rabbonim have the moral backbone to say and act (and pasken) clearly and firmly?

*** said...

And what if the voices of the 'observant public' are totally ignored by the organisation?

proof-reader said...

The English translation posted is inaccurate. He writes that a proper hashgocho is by strictly orthodox rabbis who are answerable to a lay committee representing the community of those who observe Torah and mitzvos.

Ham & High said...

Man set for harassment trial linked to Temple Fortune rabbi investigation

A man charged with harassment in relation to police investigations into a Temple Fortune rabbi will stand trial in July.

Samuel Erlanger, 37, will appear at Willesden Magistrates’ Court for trial on July 11 as part of ongoing investigations into orthodox rabbi Chaim Halpern, 54, leader of Divrei Chaim Synagogue in Bridge Lane, Temple Fortune.

Mr Erlanger, of Powis Gardens, Golders Green, denied one charge of harassment without violence at Hendon Magistrates Court on Thursday.

He was arrested in January on suspicion of harassment via telephone following incidents alleged to have taken place between December 25 last year and January 23 this year.

Another man, Shlomo Feldman, 28, of Lynmouth Road, Stamford Hill, faces three charges of harassment without violence in relation to the investigation into Rabbi Halpern and will appear at Hendon Magistrates Court on May 15.

Rabbi Halpern was arrested and questioned in February on suspicion of sexual assault and perverting the course of justice. He is due to return to police in July.

SilentWitness said...

If one makes no effort to protect what comes out of his mouth, what difference does it make what goes in. Its why trief scandals come about.

Hecsher aheen, Hecsher ahair, its not sincere, or convincing enough to be trusted. First prove your worth by seeking out those criminals who abused and abuse children in schools etc... and then we can start taking your labels seriously.
After all those teacher/rebbes who are Choteh Machteh has caused some people to eat trief. They also bring about misery for the community as their abusive behaviors has caused havoc, among the charadi people.
A hecsher on the school system is please.


May there be peace said...

Mr Porky has yet again sabotaged another minyan.

The Simcha Suite Minyan had a Rav coming from Israel and allegedly Mr Porky sent a message to him that he should not bother coming as the Hellpan mafia would make his life a misery.

The Simcha Suite Minyan have now moved in with the Matok Minyan in solidaraty and achdut with the same goals in mind.

May they have hatzlacha together and build a community that was once destroyed [] to bring joy and happiness to a much needed North West London.

steve said...

What happened with the Rov they wanted (Eichenstien) is that he only agrees to come if he gets Reb Chuna's agreement first. He wants one of the minyan to come with him to Reb Chuna but none of them will.

kochlefel said...

@Yossi Heller, repeating corny pat lines don't make a good argument. Rav Hager's notice is perfectly clear, there is no shchutei chutz acccording to him, but he still wouldn't recommend a beis din that is privately run, a standard many hold of.

If you don't understand it that says more about your cognitive skills than his principles. Oh, I'm sorry, a psak isn't "principled" until it agrees with your preconceptions.

This sounds a little like the "principles" of those sad souls who tried to mount a protest on BL but were too nervous to even get out their cars, or those who spent a gainful productive day skulking around the magistrates courts in the hope of being the first to spread some minor morsel of "news".

It seems some people have spent 50 years waiting for a scandal this juicy to sink their failing teeth into. Like an old man with no family or friends, waiting all year for his next birthday when they get one day of attention.

Seen enough said...

Which eichenstien?

Hisachdus Kehillos HaChazerim said...



From the latest adverts, it is clear that the Vaad Hatznius, which sounds like something out of a George Orwell novel, is now not merely approved of by the UOHC, but is run by them. Given all that we've experienced over the last few months, it is quite astonishing that GG is still in thrall to these charlatans, and that not a single shul has followed North Hendon's example.

It is simply mind-boggling that people are prepared to have anything to do with an organization headed by that monster Padwa, who this very week is allowing our favourite rov to be mesader kiddushin. Yet what do the local rabbonim do to protest? Nothing. They see or hear no evil when it comes from the 'sitra di'yemina', yet Roberts would undoubtedly not lower himself to sharing a platform with anyone slightly to the left of him.

The fact that the rabbonim (and much of the laity too) have sold their souls to the devils of N16, just goes to show that in our world, looking heimish will come before acting decently every time.

Anonymous said...

Golders Green suffer from a severe lack of askonim. Stamford Hill home of 'the devils' with its vaad hatsnius offers a full cradle to grave service like every kehilla should. Decnt Schools, Shuls, Halls and Mikvaois (Men & Ladies). Golders Green have NOTHING to be proud of. The main shul 171 is owned by an individual and they suffice with a car park mikva never mind the ladies mikva. They whinge all day that kedassia dont care for them boo hoo when in fact Stamford Hill manage without keddassia in many areas. Until now the chassisdich oilam in golders green was held together by one family now that its has been ripped apart instead of using the oppertunity to sit around a table and discuss where to go from here Golders green sit bereft and wait for things to go back to where they were. Why cant the golders green rabonim sit and discuss a new kehilla independently run by elected trustees to offer BASIC services which the kehilla LACKS. The new kehilla will have its own hecsher own central shul and own mikvaois its a wild dream but unfortunatley the only way forward.

dismayed said...

Demonstration at Chupah 3.15pm Wednesday at Kinloss. Chaim Halpern officiating. Demo will be on other side of road so as not to upset baalei simcha. Placards will be available "The biggest Chilul Hashem since Shabetai Zvi"

Anonymous said...

Just to inform you that contrary to popular belief, GGBH (Munks) is not and has never been and never will be associated with the UOHC.

LearnedFriend said...

It's incredible that those seeking to demonise the entire H family will throw anything in the hope that something else sticks.

They had nothing to do with the proposed appointment of a rov for one of the new minyonim. That rov considered asking RCH for his blessing but couldn't get backing but RCH was not even approached =, much less "MH" getting involved in any shape or form.

The rumours that reach the blogs always are the most exaggerated and hysterical from the actual course of events. It's beyond hilarious to see these anonymous posters getting worked up over facile conspiracy theories.

Those trying to dredge up the same tired "porky-bashing" that was all the rage in November prove themselves only to be consumed with an obsessive hatred against one family and the favourite Internet punching bag.

I wonder who these 2 people are who repeated post the same tripe over and over and over again, trying to sow discord when 99.99999% of GG ignore their obsessive fantasies.

Above the Knee said...

As this blog seems to be grinding to a bit of a halt, I thought I'd write a bit of a rant in the full knowledge that probably v few people will read it - or perhaps many people still check here regularly and then leave without commenting "window shlepping" if you will.

I just couldn't resist the temptation to throw my 2 shekel worth into the chulent pot about this latest nonsense coming out of the "Union of Obdurately Heinous Criminals".

I am of course talking about the Va'ad Ha'Tznius - AKA Skirt Measuring Brigade.

Avoiding the obvious - (how do any of these Union machers feel they have a right to impose their views on others, or worse still talk about chulent pots and shabbes kettles or people living in glass shteiblach not throwing anti-shabbos breaking rocks) - I wanted to look at a more fundamental problem with the issue at hand.

I'll break it down to 2 general points.

Firstly - last time I checked (it would have been long ago - but as Shavuos was only last week, I did manage a quick check between slices of cheesecake) we have 613 commandments. I'm also pretty sure that I read somewhere in the Pirkei Ovos that we are supposed to take good care about the performance of all 613, as us lowly humans are incapable of understanding the relative importance of them. If that is true, we should be busy enough keeping those 613 without adding to them. As far as I know (again - it has been a short while since I checked) nowhere in the Torah do we have instructions about skirt or sleeve length, denim (yes or no?!), how shiny a womans shoes should be, how opaque tights should be and other such matters of hefty import. Perhaps we should devote our time instead to taking care over things that are much more explicit like Lo Sisno Ochicho Bilvovecha, Ve'Ahavta Lereiocho Kamoicho, Inappropriate contact with people of the opposite sex, or children, the list goes on.....

Just in case I'm wrong and someone finds me a source (I'm sure many of you will) for these things in the Torah, all other mitzvos should be at least of equal importance. I am very much looking forward in the imminent future to the formation of a Va'ad to report on Shaatnez abuses, Mikve Attendance and People who knock on my door collecting funds for Moisdos in Eretz Yisroel and are then seen gambling that same money in casinos, eating expensive meals or entertaining themselves in other inappropriate ways. In fact there should be Va'ads popping up by the dozen (well actually 613 of them) somewhere near you very soon - so do watch out for them and I am certain that some very enterprising Heimisher has already worked out how they are going to make money out of all of this.

Which brings me on to my second point - a little simpler and hopefully more obvious. I'm assuming that all those terribly concerned about these tznius issues reads Krias Shma at least twice every day. Perhaps they should read it a little slower and have proper Kavornia over the words "lo Sasuru Acharei Levavchem Ve'Acharei EINEICHEM" Just because there are women out there who choose to traipse around wearing very little - doesnt mean you are obliged to ogle them (Yes you, don't pretend it wasn't you - I saw you ogling!) Practice a little Shmiras Einayim and you will have no problem at all - but I guess you will not want to do that, seeing as you have decided to create a Va'ad to give you the perfect excuse TO HAVE A LOOK, take photos (for evidence of course) and keep looking.

In brief summary:

Try not to be so consumed with other people's religious standards. If you were more concrned about your own - so many of your problems would disappear altogether.

Anonymous said...

Whose hechsher is the meat under to start with. Why wouldnt it be shechutai chutz?

Below the Belt said...

Above the knee - well said!

Union No More said...

Learned Fried - I think I've worked out whose friend you are. MH certainly was involved, and yes, there are enough eidei re'iyah and shemiya to what has gone on over the past few months to know that he got off very lightly indeed on this blog and elsewhere. The reason people are upset with 'one family' is because that family have ripped the moral fabric of our community to pieces.

Anonymous said...

"Try not to be so consumed with other people's religious standards. If you were more concrned about your own - so many of your problems would disappear altogether."

You Holders Greeners just dont get it. Us Stamford Hilles start our journey into Yiddishkeit on a much higher plane than people from Golders Green.

Therefore, by the time we reach maturity, we have accomplished pretty much all there is to achieve in our personal growth. That is why we start focusing on others, who sadly did not reach the levels which we are at and are the accepted norm. We do our best to help them climb higher.

Yossi Heller said...

@kochlefel, it appears that my comments have excited you somewhat, and at the risk of exciting you further, the “corny pat line": ‘The pot calling the kettle black’ springs to mind. I am somewhat perplexed by someone who pontificates about principles, sad souls, too nervous to get out, etc., from beyond a cloak of anonymity.

It behoves someone of your cognitive skills, to pass supercilious comments, with hyperbole [Aristotle was correct], or do you suffer from expressive aphasia? Either way, you have failed to comprehend my comments. Perhaps if I were to write in the style of some Rabbonim of our era? No, I shall not degrade myself; I shall just treat your comments with the contempt that you deserve.

SH educated said...

It's not how many people read it but who reads it.
Quality (sic!) before quantity.
You may be sure that at least some of the "right" people are keeping up with this blog and indeed, living in Stamford Hill, have noted more than once reaction from the "bigwigs" to items that first saw the light of day here.
Keep up the good work and don't worry there is one thing they will never give any attention to, concern about their own religious standards.

SH educated said...

Oh Anonymous!
Who are you trying to fool? Besides yourself I mean.
There are NO (central) kehilla services in Stamford Hill. All the moisdois hachinuch and other community services are private establishments usually bound to one of the multi-national chassiduses eg. Belz, Satmer or Vishnitz etc.
Vaad Hatsenius is a bunch of weirdos hiding behind an anonymous mobile number. And no-one knows exactly what its remit is and what actually it is suppose to achieve and, if anything, how.
Can you tell me of one single service that the UOHC has ever done for us. I mean something for which they had no vested interest, usually money, and which was purely and entirely for the toivih and benefit of the kehilla they purport to represent (and think they can tell what to do).
Gut Shabbas